Weston-super-Mare & District Family History Society

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Harden Family mystery.
published by on Wed, 09/03/2016 - 11:11

Has anyone come across two children in what seems to be the same family being given the same name while the 1st named is still alive?

on 1st April 1803 George Chappel Harden was baptised at Weare Parish church, parents Edward & Elizabeth Harden.

on 8th January 1805 George Harden was baptised at the same church with what looks like the same parents, although they were recorded as Harding.

To confuse matters on 1 Jan 1802 another George Harden is baptised at the same church, this time to parents Robert & Maria Harden (again recorded as Harding)

In the records both families are recorded as Harden & Harding.

The first two George's mentioned marry & live until their 60's & 70's and are found on the census returns, but I can find no records relating to the third George - did he die & should the second baptism mentioned be for the George with parents Robert & Maria. Did the vicar make a mistake??

Sorry this sounds confusing but it is confusing me! Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you

Linda

Comments ..

Submitted by Les Martels on Wed, 09/03/2016 - 13:36

Hi Linda,

I too have had the same problem but only with the sons of Edward & Elizabeth. I found it strange that they had two sons with the same names and assumed that the first one died, although no burial was found, until I was able to follow his life through. I thought maybe the person who wrote up the register may have got the name wrong for the second George but as you have followed him through as George, that cannot be right. As it is only on the periphery of my tree, I have put it on the back burner until I have more time. My connection is through Elizabeth West, wife of Edward.

As you rightly say, a bit of a mystery.

Elizabeth

Submitted by on Thu, 10/03/2016 - 21:10

Hello Elizabeth,

thank you for your reply. The George I have followed through in fact could be either the George born to Robert & Maria or the George born to Elizabeth & Edward. The ages on the census vary by a few years either side & I had assigned them all to 'our George' before I realised there was another George born to Robert. George Chappel is my ancestor so I'm sure that appears to be correct. This still doesn't solve why two George's! I don't see how we can prove the George that marries Elizabeth Arney is brother to George Chapel but I can't find an early death for a George Harden. I'm going round in circles!

If you do find anything perhaps you can contact me.

Kind regards

Linda

Submitted by Pat Hase on Fri, 11/03/2016 - 0:09

On the 1841 and 1851 census George & Elizabeth have Emily with them. On the 1851 census she is described as his niece, born in South Brent. The Emily Elizabeth HARDEN christened at St Michaels's Church, Brent Knoll (South Brent) in 1832 was the d/o John & Hannah.

To be George's niece, her father, John HARDEN, should be a brother of George. Does this help to sort out the Georges?

Submitted by on Fri, 11/03/2016 - 23:31

Thank you for your help Pat. Unfortunately none of these George's have a brother John that I have found yet! The Emily I already have in my tree, born at a similar time was a daughter of George Chappel Harden.

However I do have a George born in Mark in 1779, who had a brother John. This John was married to Ann & I believe Hannah can be another name for Ann, but Ann was born in 1771 making her too old to be Emily's mother? Especially as there was another child born in 1834.

And I thought the name Harden would be an easy one to research as I hadn't come across it before!

Submitted by on Wed, 09/03/2016 - 23:14

I have a similar situation in several family lines spanning different centuries, but from different family lines. The most recent were two children baptised in 1820 and 1823 which were consecutive births. Both had first names of Edward but the elder had his maternal grandmother's maiden name as a middle name (which was also his father's full name) and the other had a normal middle name. Its possible that the younger was named after his mother's father but as his mother is missing from the 1851 Census and dies before 1861 and was born out of county, its been impossible to confirm. Both lived to adulthood and married. Initially it was always thought the first must have died but that proved not to be the case. So its not as uncommon as may be thought, and one set of brothers from the 1500s were sons of a vicar and his Will confirmed both had lived to adulthood.

Submitted by on Thu, 10/03/2016 - 21:01

Hello Nicola

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I have never come across this before & wondered if the vicar had made a mistake, but after your story it appears this may not be the case!

Kind regards

Linda

Submitted by on Wed, 23/03/2016 - 13:29

Two living children in the same family being given the same name. Yes, two sons of Joseph and Joan Day of Woolavington - were both called William!
William (known as William the Elder) DAY married Maria Young 10/2/1777 at Woolavington.
William (the Younger) DAY (bapt.30/6/1737) married Hannah Richards c.1763.
They were part of the Day family of Limeburners of Woolavington.
Incidentally, we, too, have Hardens in our Chappell family tree.
Betty Harden m. John Gadd 19/1/1765 at Loxton, and as "the Widow Gadd" m.William Chappell 20/6/1770 at Weare. In her will of 8/5/1824 she left property and cash to five nephews:
Robert Harden,in Weare, John Harden, in Badgworth, and Edward, Jesse and Charles Harden.
Is this the same family?
Raysboy.

Submitted by on Wed, 23/03/2016 - 19:09

Yes it sounds like it Robert Harden was my direct ancestor. Will just have to check out the dates. Sounds interesting, thank you.

Submitted by Pat Hase on Wed, 23/03/2016 - 23:58

I'm intrigued by your two Williams! I can see in the Parish Registers for Woolavington published on CD by the History of Woolavington Group that the William DAY who married Hannah RICHARDS on the 15th Jan 1765 was called William the Younger. Where did you find the William who married Maria YOUNG referred to as the Elder?

Don't forget that the term can change with time - the younger can later become the elder if he has a son of the same name.

Have you read this entry on Rootschat? Someone with the same query. In my experience elder and younger is usually used to denote a father/son or uncle/nephew relationship but there is always an exception which proves the rule!

Submitted by on Sat, 02/04/2016 - 12:00

Hello Pat,
I picked up on the two Williams from a lady researching the Limeburners of Woolavington. Unfortunately I did not check the info because the Days only appear once on the Chappell family tree, and were not part of the main chunk of the Chappell family.
Quote from the lady's letter: "William the younger, baptised 30 June 1737 had an older brother also called William who married Maria Young on 10 February 1777, it was their children and grandchildren who were the Limeburners of Woolavington."
The Days were spread out over Woolavington, Bawdrip, and Chedzoy parishes. Could be William the Elder was recorded at one of the nearby parishes??
Sorry, but I haven't checked the entries personally, but I do believe it came from a reliable source.
And many, many thanks for sending on the transcript of Betty Chappell (nee Harden) will.
Best regards and thanks again.
Dennis.

Submitted by on Thu, 24/03/2016 - 22:22

Thank you for that link. Not sure which Robert is the nephew but John, Edward, Jesse & Charles are sons of John harden & Martha Neighbour. Haven't been able to make the link to Betty, don't know if you can help at all?

Linda

Submitted by on Thu, 31/03/2016 - 11:56

Sorry, probably can't link any further, but Betty Chappell (nee Harden,) by her will describes Robert, John, Edward, Jesse and Charles as her nephews, but also beneficiaries Charles, Edward and Martha "the 3 children of my late nephew George Harden dec'd" to receive Â£30 each when they reach the age of 21. There are also various other non-Harden or non-Chappell beneficiaries.
Betty Chappell: born Betty Harden c.1737 @ Weare.
married John Gadd, Farmer, 19/1/1765 @ Loxton
(widowed) married William Chappell 20/6/1770 @ Weare
Will of Betty Chappell 8/5/1824.
Betty Chappell died 26/3/1825 aged 87.
buried 1/4/1825 @ Badgworth.
I'm hoping to get to wsmfhs monthly meetings. Will it help if I bring transcripts of the 3 Chappell wills held in Somerset Record Office, together with a summary of the lands and other assets detailed in Betty Chappell's will?
Dennis Lane (Raysboy)

Submitted by on Thu, 31/03/2016 - 17:29

Thanks for that information Dennis. I will have to spend some more time trying to sort this out! Unfortunately I can't get to the meetings as I live in Essex, although I would love to see the will transcripts.

I will let you know if/when I make the connection to Betty as it is obviously a gap in my tree!

Linda

Submitted by on Fri, 01/04/2016 - 11:50

Hello Linda,
I've tried to upload the Transcript of Betty Chappell's will, also a Summary of the Assets contained in the will, but the system doesn't like Word files. I can't change it to a Jpeg file, so I'll try again, scanning prints of the documents, but it may be a day or so. Hope it'll be worthwhile.
Dennis.

Submitted by on Fri, 01/04/2016 - 16:58

thankyou Dennis, it's very good of you. Otherwise perhaps I can let you have my address & you could copy & send to me. I will reimburse you for any costs , failing that I suppose Somerset records might send me copies if I apply?

Thank you for your time, I do appreciate it & if you needed anything from Essex records I would be happy to try & oblige.

Linda

Submitted by on Fri, 01/04/2016 - 22:36

Thank you Denis I have now received the transcript of the will of Betty Harden. It is very kind of you to be so generous as to share the information with me. It will take me some time to work my way through this but it is certainly my family as Robert was also the name of my 2 x Gt Grandfather and all the other Hardens mentioned appear on my family tree as does Elizabeth Whiting, (my grandmother was a Harden). If I can come up with any further information gleaned from the will & linking Betty into my tree I will let you know. She certainly seems to be the missing link. Many thanks again
Linda

Submitted by on Sat, 02/04/2016 - 11:34

Hello Linda. So glad you've got the transcript, thanks to Pat Hase who picked up on my woe and sent the docs on my behalf. I'm really grateful and it's so nice to think we family researchers are so ready to help each other.
I've printed off some of the correspondence, so if I find anything else that could be of interest to either or both of us, I'll gladly send it on. And of course, if you think I can help with Chappell/Harden research locally, I'll be pleased to give it a try.
Happy researching.
Dennis.

Submitted by on Sat, 02/04/2016 - 16:25

Hello Denis, I have noticed that people on this site in particular are very helpful & I for one would rather share & get the facts right & as they say two heads are better than one! I have thanked Pat by replying directly to her email, it was very good of her to help out. I Must admit I was finding the Hardens difficult until I joined WSMFHS. I hope I haven't made any errors but I also have a Jone Chapell on my tree, she is my 5x Gt grandmother, b1750 at Mark, married John West 12/12/1780 & died 1817 at South Brent aged 67.I don't know if she is one of yours? Thank you for your offer of help, likewise if you should need any lookups in Essex let me know.

Linda

Submitted by on Sun, 01/01/2017 - 13:37

hi Denis

Sorry I haven't been in touch, but had a few health problems, then my computer decided to call it a day. Now have a new computer so hope to continue with the problem of where Betty fits into my family tree. Just wanted you to know I hadn't forgotten.

wishing you a Happy New Year.

kind regards

Linda